|
I had recently come across a description of Laos at the time of the Ho invasion and I have included that transcript below. At the time, Laos was split into 3 factions, which explains why one king of Laos asked his cousin, the king of Ayuttaya for help and also explains why a Laotian army would attack the Siamese who had been invited.
Sort of reminds me of the US role in Vietnam. There were so many factions, tribes, warlords, etc. involved, that the US couldn't figure out who the 'bad guys' were, eventually withdrawing (the difficult task) rather than conquering (the easy task). Anyway, here is the transcript of Siam's role relating to Laos and the Haw (Ho). "In 1771 the king of Louangphrabang attacked Vientiane, determined to punish it for what he perceived to be its complicity in a Burmese attack on his capital in 1765. The Siamese captured Vientiane for the first time in 1778-79, when it became a vassal state to Siam. Vientiane was finally destroyed in 1827-28 following an imprudent attempt by its ruler, Chao Anou, to retaliate against perceived Siamese injustices toward the Lao. The disappearance of the Vientiane kingdom and the weakened condition of Louangphrabang led to a period of direct Siamese presence on the left bank of the Mekong and to the virtual annexation of Xiangkhouang and part of Bolikhamxai by the Vietnamese. The Siamese also soon became more directly involved with the Kingdom of Louangphrabang, whose ruler, Manta Thourath (r. 1817-36), had sought to preserve neutrality in the conflict between Siam and Vientiane. The Siamese intervention was caused by an appeal by King Oun Kham (r. 1872-94) for help in clearing his northeastern territories of the Hô (Haw), bands of armed horsemen who had fled the bloody Manchu campaign to pacify Yunnan." As you can see, the domino theory was alive and well centuries ago. The entire region owes its current political makeup to Chinese purges made over the centuries. It's a shame they never give gredit to the Tai people of NanZhao (NanChao) for teaching them to grow rice and build strong houses. The book "The Royal Palace of Phnom Penh and Cambodian Royal Life" mentioned that the Khmer people had their origins in NanChao, moving into the southern area of Cambodia/Vietnam around the 1st century AD. Much of ancient history ties in with a northern migration (from Ban Chiang), then eastern (Assam, Burma), western (Canton, Taiwan) and southern migration (Laos, Vietnam & Cambodia) of a family of Tai speaking people. Apparently, the original Vietnamese (Annamese) were forced south into Tonkin and Annam by this expansion. NanChao (Tai) power was lost with the Mongolian Chinese invasion of Kublai Khan in the 13th century. That invasion and migration strengthened Lanna, SukoThai, Ayuttaya and Annam, and produced events that created Lan Xiang. Plus, the bubonic plague destroyed many existing empires allowing Siam and Lan Xiang to grow quickly. Remember, Fa Ngum married a Princess of Ayuttaya and had their aid in overcoming the Mongkol rulers of the Mekong valley. From the begining, Lan Xiang paid taxes and tribute to Ayuttaya as a friendly vassal state. The Tai states; Shan, Thai, Lao, Hainan, Yunan, Taiwan, etc., should remember their family ties and remain friends and allies. Visitor I agree with you on your last post except Lan Xang being a vassel state of Ayutthaya. Fa Ngum took Issan and Champassak form King Outhong (Ramatibodi the 1). With the army that the Khmer gave him Fa Ngum took many kingdom on the left bank. When he fought and took Roi Et and Korat he sent a letter to king Outhong. The letter told Outhong that Fa Ngum wanted to unite the Tai people on both sides of the mekong river. He also ask if Outhong wanted war. Outhong replied we are brother of the same blood. We are both the sons of Borom if you want land then take the Issan area. Outhong also told Fa Ngum that when Outhong's daughter get old enough Outhong will send his daughter to marry Fa Ngum. A proof of this is The land of Champassak. In champassak is Wat Phu. Wat Phu is called Syampobura meaning muang Syam or city of Siam. That is southern Laos. Siamese are now in central Thailand. That is how Siamese got there name. Outhong had the Land of Syam and Devarati combine before Fa Ngum came into power. If Lan Xang was a vassel state he would not be able to talk land by force from King Outhong of Ayutthaya. Visitor Many Thai histories have Fa Ngum fighting the Monkol along the river, with Khmer allies in the beginning and allied with his relatives from Ayuttaya, later in the struggle. When your brother wants to share land with you, it is not war. However, there are many records of Fa Ngum paying tribute to Ayuttaya after he married the daughter of OuThong (OuDiong). Don't forget, Ayuttaya sent an army to take control of Angkor at that time. So they were veryy busy, reorganizing Cambodia, looking for a relative of the old Angkor royal family killed by the plague and establishing the new capital of Oudong (OuThong) near present day Phnom Penh. As to the name Siam, A, independent Shan States site drew the conclusion that Assam (India), Shan (Burma), Siam (Thailand) and Issan (Thailand & Laos) are all variations on the same word. Just as 'NAN' identifies an old 'TAI' city or area, such as; NanZao, YuNan, NanJing, Funan, etc. Funan is specifically identified as Tai in the book 'The Royal Palace of Phnom Phen and Cambodian Royal Life', written by the biographer of King Norodom Sihanouk. The book contains a forward by the former King of Cambodia. Considering the numerous Tai place names throughout Vietnam and Cambodia, plus the very ancient history of Ban Chiang against the much newer history of Angkor, the King's and the author's statements make perfect sense. Even the Black Tai, White Tai and Red Tai have stories of livig in the lowlands before the Viet came. It is quite possible, even likely, that Issan people from Ban Chiang are the original Tais that moved to NanZhao, Assam, Canton and Taiwan. The oldest iron tools ever found on earth, were discovered at Ban Chiang. All along, we had been discussing which of the grandchildren had which farm, when it's always been the same family. Visitor Fa Ngum did not pay tribute to Ayuthaya as a vassel state. If there were tribute paid it would be Ayutthaya paying Fa Ngum. Outhong feared Fa Ngum and wanted to have good relations with the powerful king. In order to tie stronger relationship Outhong gave fa Ngum gold, silver, land and war elephants to Fa Ngum welcoming Fa Ngum as new king of a new state Lan Xang. Outhong wanted to ally himself with his brother and make the two country stronger. Once Oothong's daughter got older she was sent to marry Fa Ngum. The tribute that fa Ngum paid Outhong is called SOM-MA. SOM-MA is a Lao culture and tradition. It is not just done by kings but also by citizens. When a Lao SOM-MA their parents, they have white flowers and white candles along with gifts so that it would make our parents soul stronger and live longer. Also giving them blessing of good health. In Lao, if you get married and wanted to be respected then you would have to SOM-MA your wifes parents. To SOM-MA your wifes parents you buy flowers and gifts as for healing and blessing their souls. You then give it to them then bow down three times blessing them with your words. That is one of the greatest blessing from a son in law. In Fa Ngum's case, if he didn't do that it would be dishonoring his ancestors cultures and customs especially when he is a king. For a son in law that does that in Lao tradition gives the son in law a good karma to have good health and prosper. Ayutthaya and Lan Xang from there on became great allies and the country of two brothers. As a Lao, I have Tai blood running in my body. I have been studying different Tai dialect from south China to southeast Asia. The word Shan means mountain. There were people that migrated from the Ai Lao Shan (meaning Ai Lao mountain). These moutnain are very high in elevation. These mountain are located in China. That's why some people called the Lao, Laotian. The Tian at the end of Laotian are written for Lao Shan. Ai Lao Shan + Ai Lao Tiane. That's how the Tai Yai in the Shan state are called the Shan. The word Issan came from the sanscrit language. It means northeastern. This area became the northeastern territory of united Tai nation Thailand. Here is the direction in Sanscrit North: Uttarena (Oudone) South: Dakkhina (Thakhin) East: Pura (Boora, Boorapha) West: Pacchim Northeast: Issan Southeast: Ahkhane Northwest: Phayub Southwest: Horadee The people in the Shan state that migrated to Assam India are called Ahom. Tai ahom, from the word Ahom it evolve into Assom then Assam. These people migrate there and called the city Gasair. Gasair means river like the word NONG GASAIR SAN YAN (a lake river that never flows straight). Nong gasair sanyan is short to NONGSAIR. NONGSAIR is what the Ai Lao called the city at lake talee. The center of nanchao. Syam in sanscrit means dark or referring to dark skin man. Syampobura means city of the dark or dark skin man. Syampobura is now called Wat Phu Champassak. In the Jenla empire of the Khmer the city was the court of the empire. Syampobura was the name of the ancient Khmer city. Before the Jenla fought each other broke into two kingdoms. The land Jenla and the water Jenla. The word Funan is a Tai word. The word Fu in Tai language is now pronounced Pho or poo. The word Nan is a Tai word meaning city. It also change. The word Nan was change to Lan. The word Funan in means city of mountain in the Tai language. During that time the Tai kingdom was being control by the Chinese. That's when the Chinese historian came to the city called Banom Bura. Banombura is now called Nakorn Panom in Issan. The historian called this land, land of mountain. Banombura means bity of mountain in khmer. Banom means hills or mountain bura means city. Funan means banombura (Nakorn Panom). The Chinese historians documented that in this kingdom are the people called Jenla. Later the capital was moved to the east side of the river. The capital of land jenla was then called Kotabura (Srikotaboon) This is where the king died. After the death of the Jenla king a monument was made. This monument is still in Laos called Pra Tad Sikotabong. This is the kingdom of funan (banombura). The word Fu means mountain and in Laos today is pronounced Phu or Poo. The word Nan. The kingdom of Nanchao means land of kings. It should have been spelled Nanjao instead. The word nan later changed to LAN. Out of this kingdom of Nanchao three other kingdom was born. The three kingdom are NANNA, NANJANG and NANPAENG. Since the word Nan changed to Lan the three kingdom was called LANNA , LANJANG (LANXANG), AND LANPAENG(AYUTTHAYA). LANXANG, LANNA and LANPAENG rulers are descent of the king of LANJAO (nanchao) name Pilaoko (Khun Borom). That's how the king Outhong of Ayutthaya, Fa Ngum of Lan Xang and king Mengrai of Lanna are related. By the blood of Borom king Pilaoko of Nanchao. These information I give you here are from the book of Khun Borom. The book of Khun Borom are in the museum in Thailand and Laos. In Thailand it is in Ramkhamhaeng museum and in Laos it is in the museum of Maha Sila Viravong. I don't think government official in both coutries will let anybody touch it though. There are Tai places throughout Vietnam because those places used to be part of the kingdom of Lan Xang that the French gave to Vietnam. If you are talking about Dienbienfu, that place used to be part of Nanchaos expansion. During the time of Pilaoko, he expanded the kingdom to northern Thailand northern Laos, northern Vietnam and the Shan state area. About the Tai migrating to Hainan and Taiwan, it was after the Chinese took the city pay-ngai from us. That's way before Nanchao. This is from the research of Doctor Sila Viravong. At that time from his study is when we first called ourselves Tai. Even though we called ourself Tai, we still called ourself Ai Lao. The word Tai means Lao and Lao means Tai. Ai Lao means the stars. Tai means spirit of the heaven as pronounced in modern day pee Thai. Tai means free. Tai means group of people, only when referring to a Tai group. Tai means the spirit of the high mountain of the Ai Lao. The spirit of Ai Lao Shan would also be called pee Tai because it is the spirit of the high plateau. Visitor This is an excellent response. It is understandably written and to the point. However, histories of the area, outside of Laos don't record things exactly the same. This is why I am researching this subject. Annamese history says that LanXiang and Annam paid yearly tribute to Ayuttaya, plus LanXiang paid additional tribute to Annam. Yes, I understand that such payment and gifts are to "keep them off our backs", more than slaves paying their masters, but equals don't pay tribute to equals. FaNgum may have proclaimed to his people that he was master of the world, but the countries around him said he was just a vassal king. Other points: Archeologists called Dien Bien Phu 'the oldest Tai city' for over a century, until some young archeologist started digging at Ban Chiang. The same type of Tai, knotted cord pottery has been found at Ban Chiang, as was found at Dien Bien Phu, only, it is 3000 years older. The Tai / Lao / Shan have been in Issan for 5000 years, long before ChenLa, FuNan, Angkor, Champa, Ayuttaya, Lan Xiang, Laos or Thailand. As to Issan / Syam / Shan / Assam, it was the Shan States website that put those names together as a rephrasing of the same term. Nan is well understood to be the precourser to Lan, as Buri is to Bury, Bura, and Burg. There are at least 25 Chinese cities using Nan as either prefix or suffix. NanZhao was a very large country before the Mongols overthrew it in 1258 and moved south into the Mekong region. Obviously, it was to everyone's benefit (Ayuttaya, Annam, Angkor) to have a buffer state along the Mekong. FaNgum, as the leader of an army from Angkor, was helping Angkor, Ayuttaya and Annam, by defeating the Mongkols and establishing LanXiang. FuNan is the name used in the ancient Chinese chronicles of a visit to Angkor. In those chronicles, Assayama is the country of slaves just northwest of Angkor (Ayuttaya). There is also a story that a general of Angkor, in the 4th or 5 th century, took slaves from the Red River area (Dien Bien Phu) and resettled them along the Chao Phaya. Just like the Thais took all the Lao people from along the Mekong and moved them to Tonle Sap As to Bura / Buri, that is an ancient Indian (Hindi) word meaning city. Germans, Russians, English and Americans have cities with it as a suffix. So, Kanchantaburi, Canterbury St. Petersburg and Pittsburg all have a common thread of history. We have discussed before, how many traditions go back to ancient India. Americans use red and green colors and holy for Christmas decorations and Tais have Loy Krathong and Songran. The Hindi word Sri means 'honorable' and when used for a person has exactly the same meaning as the word Sir. Christian Baptism, Moslems washing before prayers, Tais washing before visiting a Wat or a Priest are all the same tradition. Many Hindus consider Christianity, Islam and Buddhism as just branches off the tree of Hinduism. Christ travelled in India, learning Jain and Buddhist teachings before returning home to teach his people. Now we are back to U-Thong. In the middle of the 14th century, while FaNgum was building LanXiang, U-Thong was building Ayuttaya, by taking over Divarivarti, then Angkor. Both of those governments had collapsed and their cities were falling apart, probably due to the arrival of the Bubonic Plague. He had plenty to do, settling Malaya and rebuilding Cambodia, so he wanted to remain friendly with Lan Xiang. I am sure that both Lan Xiang and Ayuttaya exchanged gifts over the years. As to which anyone believes was the vassal, probably depends entirely upon which side of the Mekong they are on today. Dutch, English, French and Chinese maps of the 16th century show Siam as a large country on the southern edge of China. It extended from the Irrawadi River in Burma, across the southern edge of China, including HaiNan and the Spratley Islands. Then on south to Singapore and across the straits of Mallacca. In the 15th century, the Portuguese paid Ayuttaya for the right to occupy Mallacca. Those maps put half of Burma, half of YunNan, plus all of Malaya, Cambodia, Laos and Vietnam inside Syam. Maybe a few people in Laos are correct, but at least 11 other countries record history differently. In our discussions, I have tried to stay with the majority opinion, as it is most likely correct. Visitor I don't agree with you or any Thai historian that Lan Xang was vassel state of Ayuthaya. The reason why is because one, the Thai historian has always made up their own history in the past to show foreigners. Two, A vassel state is a state that is taken over or over powered by another by force to be under control. Lan Xang did not eixst before Ayuthaya. Fa Ngum state of Lan Xang can not be any vassel state because he created his own state. He fought and took land from many kings. He attack roi et , korat and many other small cities of Ayuthaya when it belong to king Outhong. When he capture the praya (small king or governor) of roi et and korat he sent a letter daring the king of Ayuthaya to fight him. King Outhong was scared because Outhong knew he was going to lose if he went to war with Fa Ngum. That's why Outhong gave up so many land to Fa Ngum. A powerful king would not give up land to anybody that rise against him so Outhong was scared of Fa Ngum. Outhong also gave gold, silver and war elephant for Fa Ngum to have good relationship. This is documented in the book of Khun Borom in Thailand and Laos. Fa Ngum was creating a kingdom by taking peoples land. That means he had power over Outhong to take land from Outhong. It is common sense. A powerful king would not give up land to a weaker king. That means Outhong was weaker than Fa Ngum because he gave up almost half of his land to fa Ngum. Lan Xang collapse because it fought among itself within. It didn't collapse because of a foreign power but it fought itself giving foreign power to the opportunity to defeat it. One more thing most of the international sources do not agree with Thailand historians that's why now days the Thai history are being rewrittten because there are too many false information. An example would be the kingdom of Sukothai. Thai hates Lao and say they did not come from the Lao. The word Lao is short for Ai Lao. The word Ai Lao means the star. The word Lao means star. The word Ai Lao means the star people and the word Lao means star people. The word Lao is now pronounced Dao. Like the word lin is now pronounce din for earth of soil. Thai say they don't speak Lao language and didn't come from Lao people. They say Sukothai is Thai derm meaning old Thai people. If sukothai is Thai derm and didn't come from Lao people then why did the kingdom of Sukothai all speak Lao like the Lao people today. Sukothai language 800 years ago spoke Lao. Thai said their language is not Lao and didn't come from Lao. World historians found proof that a Sukothai spoke Lao and used the Lao script. That is a embarrassment to all Thai history and historians. When they burnt most of the script of Lanna and Lan Xang they rewrote history to favor them. All the tham script of Lanna and Lan Xang that is off the mon script were burnt according to the Siamese. They said that Lanna belongs to Siamese and was a Thai kingdom. If it is why do the poeple speak Lao and eat sticky rice. Why is all the king from the Laojakarath all have the name Lao. All the king from Lao goak to Lao meng the father of Meng hai (meng rai) has the name Lao as in Lao Meng for the Lao king Meng. Now they had to rewrite their history of Lanna not because the Lao wanted them to, but international community. They now admit that Lanna was a Lao state. This information is from international Thai studies by Thai people. It was an embarrassment for their anceastor to make up history, now the children of the Thai have to correct it. This is why you can't trust Thai Historians. The map of Syam present to the west that you were talking about, I've seen it. Syam told the west that all the people in Lan Xang area were Siamese. If it was all Siamese what happen to all the Lao. Did we get lost. They act like Lan Xang never existed. Lan Xang took half the territory of Ayuthaya from Outhong and he couldn't do anything about it. If you ask a Thai historian about history they tell you their side, but when you question their history they can't answer it beccause they made it up. Like Sukothai, it is like saying Japan is an American kingdom and American people. If Japan is an American kingdom then why are they all speaking Japanese. You see there, Thai history don't make sense. If Ayuthaya was so strong why did Fa Ngum take their land by force. He attack their cities and they gave up more land. They say they didn't come from the Lao. They can't accept that the Lao are their ancestor and the Lao are the poeple they call Thai Derm. Now they change their history saying they came from the Ai Lao state. The say they came from the state of Thai Ai Lao and Nanchao. If they came from the Ai Lao then they came from the Lao. The word Lao is short for Ai Lao. What is the difference between the star people and star people. You see why you can't trust Thai sources. It is base on false history. Like I told you about the word NAN that change to LAN. A Siamese would not know that word. The Siamese would not know what Poo or fu means because they call mountain khao not poo. Only people in Issan and Lanna would know cause they use that word too. Central Thai would not understand the Tai in Taiwan or Hainan because they don't talk like the central Thai. Only Issan and Lanna would understand it in Thailand cause they speak Lao. Thai can't even understand the way people speak in Chieng Mai. How are they gonna understand the people in Hai Nan or Taiwan. There were Thai historian that said a westerner went on an expedition with two Thai along with him. The westerner went to northern Laos, Vietnam and then China. He said they all speak Thai so how can Lao say our language come from Lao. The Thai that he said went with the westerner on an Expedition was from Lampang and some other province of nothern Thailand (Lanna). Well this historian must be one of the stupidest person alive cause the people in Lampang speaks Lao and Lanna speaks lao. You see there why Thai sources can't be trusted. Scientist found proof that northern Issan and Lao of Laos has the DNA came of the Aboriginies in Australia. Isn't that significant. When scientist found that the Thai government and historians said Thai originated in southeast Asia. If they did then why did Thai discriminate on the Issan people. Visitor You bring up some good points, but seem to become emotionally involved in the outcome of the discussion. Emotion and history do not relate. It either was or was not. It was either recorded or it was not. Everything I have mentioned is well documented and part of the history of many countries. Again, I wasn't there and didn't see what happened, so what I believe doesn't matter. What does matter is the recording of the history at the time, preferrably by independent resources. Numerous foreign authors have written histories of South East Asia. Those histories usually put Siam at the pivotal point of South East Asian history for the last millenia. Those histories may not be correct, but agree with each other and with Siamese history. It is very difficult to hear one voice in a large crowd. However, please keep on yelling. Visitor |
